the_plunk ([info]the_plunk) wrote,
@ 2009-06-19 00:06:00
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Here's a fun story that no one will read
Today the United States Supreme Court ruled that people who have been convicted of a crime cannot access stored DNA evidence that could be tested and exonerate them.

To repeat, a 5-4 decision of our highest court has denied innocent people who have been wrongly convicted the ability to prove their innocence because, in the words of John Roberts, "To suddenly constitutionalize this area would short-circuit what looks to be a prompt and considered legislative response."

I don't really know what that legislative response part means, exactly, other than that it makes people uncomfortable that the innocent are sometimes convicted.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/18/supremecourt/main5095537.shtml

The Supreme Court said Thursday that convicts have no constitutional right to test DNA evidence in hopes of proving their innocence long after they were found guilty of a crime.

The decision may have limited impact because the federal government and 47 states already have laws that allow convicts some access to genetic evidence. Testing has led to the exoneration of at least 232 people who had been found guilty of murder, rape and other violent crimes.

The court ruled 5-4, with its conservative justices in the majority, against an Alaska man who was convicted in a brutal attack on a prostitute 16 years ago.

"It's hard to know whether this ruling is going to speed up the national trend toward more DNA testing," writes CBS News chief legal analyst Andrew Cohen. "Even many prosecutors are pushing for it, or at least allowing it, in certain cases where it would be relevant. In the meantime, 13 innocent defendants have been exonerated this year alone."

William Osborne won a federal appeals court ruling granting him access to a blue condom that was used during the attack. Osborne argued that testing its contents would firmly establish his innocence or guilt.

Separately, in parole proceedings, Osborne has admitted his guilt in a bid for release from prison.

The high court reversed the appellate ruling. States already are dealing with the challenges and opportunities presented by advances in genetic testing, Chief Justice John Roberts said in his majority opinion.

"To suddenly constitutionalize this area would short-circuit what looks to be a prompt and considered legislative response," Roberts said.

But Justice John Paul Stevens said in dissent that a simple test would settle the matter. "The court today blesses the state's arbitrary denial of the evidence Osborne seeks," Stevens said



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(Anonymous)
2009-06-19 06:13 am UTC (link)
WTF???

- Alex

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[info]yzerick
2009-06-19 12:23 pm UTC (link)
This doesn't sound like nearly the gotcha you make it out to be. Are we supposed to have a constitutional right to every form of evidence and testing?

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[info]the_plunk
2009-06-19 09:33 pm UTC (link)
Yes? I would say especially if the relevant technology didn't exist at the time of the original trial or if testing methods have improved enough in the intervening period to make more precise determinations than were possible originally.

The court's basically saying that it would be an inconvenience to allow DNA testing to anyone who wants it, but it seems like a pretty unjust thing to say that all who want access to DNA testing have to wait until the states in which they are incarcerated pass legislation explaining whether or not they are allowed access to it. Also I don't know if this would make it harder to challenge that sort of legislation in the courts, since it could conceivably be unjust.

Also I would without qualification say that a single false conviction is a grave moral stain on our justice system and national character and that the possibility of false conviction ought to be investigated eagerly by anyone invested in the idea that our legal system is just.

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[info]yzerick
2009-06-19 10:01 pm UTC (link)
For context, my starting impulse when it comes to DNA testing is that it is overrated... DNA evidence can only be an conclusive as the situation that provided it and that people seem to be smitten somewhat by the newness and sciencyness of it all.

Since this is such an interesting issue as to how to weigh evidence correctly, I guess I don't understand your demands. Are you saying states shouldn't be allowed to choose their own ways of handling evidence? Or are you saying that we need to promote this to a proper right guaranteed by the constitution? What would the long term ramifications of that be? Are you saying that the state should be required to provide access to every mode of evidence available, to every case, regardless of the cost? How does tying up the courts and increasing costs factor in to justice?

And, as a postnote, is a single guilty man going free the same blot on our justice system as the converse? Or is that somehow more acceptable to you?

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re:postnote
[info]sveeb
2009-06-20 06:40 am UTC (link)
No. It is the responsibility of the state to provide proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. If conditions later exist in which a reasonable doubt may be created, the convict should have the opportunity to exonerate himself. The real question here should not be whether or not our justice system is blotted (as Carolyn points out, the stain is significantly larger than that), but whether our society can tolerate ever having a situation arise in which an innocent person has exhausted all avenues of legal relief and is consigned to serving the remainder of a sentence that should not have been imposed. This is less stressful for a petty thief or DUI (though no less unjust), but becomes more significant when it involves capital or life cases.

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Re: postnote
[info]yzerick
2009-06-20 07:08 am UTC (link)
Its a false premise to say reasonable doubt can be created by new technologies. Either there was always reasonable doubt and new technology provides an avenue to resolve doubt, or there was enough evidence to convict. If there is a conviction, then the court felt that, regardless of the protestations of the defendant, there was evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. This makes the concept relatively irrelevant to this case.

To be clear, I don't know where I fall on whether the ruling was ideal or not. I do have to protest to the caricature that the majority's position is absurd. It is not.

Yes, our society can tolerate innocent people serving sentences meant for the guilty. We know that because it has, and as long as we have a justice system, it always will. You want God's justice? Great. Not gonna happen, and also not terribly relevant to this argument. The decision of what evidence is permissible in court and what constitutes reasonable doubt is up to the court and the laws that declare how the court works.

It is difficult for me to declare that it is better for guilty men to go free than innocent men go guilty. Its another meaty question, but certainly in terms of sheer pragmatism, it seems it would have to be better for innocents to be imprisoned then guilty men go free. Guilty men continue to do damage to society. Innocent men are robbed of their ability to contribute to society. Both are morally unjust, but which is more tolerable? Not that we have to choose, but its an interesting thought experiment.

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Re: postnote
[info]sveeb
2009-06-20 08:30 am UTC (link)
New technologies are not the only ways that reasonable doubt can be created, and I believe that they can create it after the fact. Other ways that it can be created are through discovery of new evidence (the presence of other possible guilty parties, crime scene evidence not noticed in the original investigation, etc.). The preponderance of the evidence must be against the defendant (the theoretical 51%), so the introduction of new evidence or new means of interpreting old evidence could potentially upset that balance and take the prosecution's case under 50%.

I understand your assertion about the pragmatism of imprisoning the innocent rather than freeing the guilty, but you'd have a hard time convincing a man who's lost his balls or someone who's been executed wrongly that that was fair or in the best interests of society!

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Re: postnote
[info]yzerick
2009-06-20 04:52 pm UTC (link)
Maybe I should rephrase the point on reasonable doubt. The only thing that can open the question is if the court agrees to reopen the case based on new evidence. Only after the case is reopened is the question of reasonable doubt interesting because you have to reconsider the evidence in full. The point you intend to make with 'reasonable doubt' is really just one about new evidence. New evidence does not always warrant reopening a case, and deciding in what circumstance to collect new evidence after a case is closed is what the legislatures have been hashing out.

Yeah, like I said, there's a meaty argument there (in which I have little interest in choosing one position over another). They still do balls-chopping out west?

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Re: postnote
[info]sveeb
2009-06-20 05:32 pm UTC (link)
From what I've read, there are at least two US states that use "chemical castration" now (Florida and Louisiana), even though it is widely known to produce no desired outcome (does not reduce aggression, arousal, or tendency to fantasize in a violent manner). Italy is considering it as well. Physical castration seems to have been mostly employed in the South, and mostly used on non-white men.

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Re: postnote
[info]yzerick
2009-06-21 12:43 am UTC (link)
At least we're only doing it for criminal cases these days. I always wonder about those justifications... if you're going to castrate somebody, you don't do it to help the person being castrated. The first reason has to be to penalize them (justice) and other justifications must be secondary. I hope nobody seriously advocates chemical castration as a way of reforming a perp... it just seems self-defeating.

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[info]the_plunk
2009-06-20 04:30 pm UTC (link)
Right, so the issue isn't whether or not any particular method of analyzing evidence is absolutely able to determine guilt or innocence in every case, but that there are--because of the specifics of the situation--circumstances in which certain technologies are able to determine whether something established as true at a trial was actually true or false. New or refined technologies have in the past allowed exoneration of people who have been convicted, and here the issue is that the supreme court has made it more difficult for similar exonerations to happen.

Because the court decided that it is up to state legislatures to establish rules governing the re-examination of evidence, that makes people in states that have no such laws unable to access techniques and evidence that might exonerate them. It also seems to weaken the process by which people in the United States challenge unjust laws, since the usual avenue is by challenging laws in the courts. It's conceivable that state laws could be drafted which would disallow or severely limit the ability of convicted people to challenge their convictions by re-examining evidence used against them, and this ruling makes it look like the supreme court wouldn't be interested in those cases. I'm not able to speculate about the possible effects of a ruling that would recognize a right to access evidence. Whatever the practical implications of a ruling might be, they're usually worked out in practice: it wouldn't be as if the criminal justice system would collapse overnight or as if everyone demanding access to evidence would be let free if they couldn't get it immediately.

Our justice system is set up to determine the truth as best it can and the ruling the court handed down here stresses that the existence of a fair trial. If the determination of truth is the ideal the court believes it's serving, then a practical application of that belief should be an openness to the possibility that truth might be able to be determined more exactly.

I'm not sure that I see the relevance of your last point for this argument, but my concern doesn't have to do with what is or isn't acceptable in absolute terms. It has to do with how willing we are to act in a manner consistent with what we believe is acceptable or unacceptable in absolute terms. It is possible to overturn wrongful convictions by a closer examination of evidence, and a dedication to justice ought to make us open to the possibility that evidence can be re-examined. If continued examination of evidence used in a trail where someone was found not guilty somehow revealed absolutely that the accused was guilty, no moral principle would cause me to oppose that evidence becoming relevant in a new trial. All our rules about double jeopardy serve the moral principle that the state should not perpetrate injustice against its citizens by using the law to harass or oppress.

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[info]yzerick
2009-06-20 04:45 pm UTC (link)
My understanding is that the SC did not suddenly create a requirement that legislatures are in charge of changes such as this one, but that historically this is how the legislature and the court interact. The SC in this case declined to seize a power that already lies within another branch of government while noting that the question of court procedure over handling of new evidence is an important issue.

What I'm reading you to be saying is that you feel strongly about court procedure and so the SC should have made the entire nation work according to that model. And that's a valid position. But I hardly think that allowing states to experiment with different ways of handling new evidence is somehow obviously morally unjust.

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[info]the_plunk
2009-06-21 04:28 am UTC (link)
So my concern with this ruling is that it leaves a lot of people with no recourse or alternative when it might be good that they have some recourse or alternative. Whether the court chooses to characterize its actions as refraining from overstepping its role or seizing power, what it actually does in every ruling is exercise considerable power in ways that have serious consequences. There's no way for the supreme court not to do that somehow, and even if the justices believe that they're doing their best to preserve some current state of affairs they are still exercising power. In this case, their desire not to intervene has caused them to actively make it harder for a lot of people to end their own false imprisonment.

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[info]yzerick
2009-06-21 04:57 am UTC (link)
You seem to be saying that you don't care whether or not it is in the constitution or whether the SC has the power to make the edict (vs a legislature), you just want them to. Emperor judges for everyone!

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[info]the_plunk
2009-06-19 09:37 pm UTC (link)
Here's the decision, by the way:

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/08pdf/08-6.pdf

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[info]carolynsinger
2009-06-20 02:29 am UTC (link)
I'm not sciency enough to figure out which end is up in this debate, but I have a statement to make about our so-called "justice system."

It has always been unjust. More people of color have always been in jail than white people. Druggies get busted in inner-city Detroit and not in Grosse Pointe. Recitivism is ridiculous, partially because druggies are trying repeatedly (and failing) to get a court order for rehab. "Rehabilitation" doesn't exist, just punitive "justice." A "blot"? I think the entire ink well was knocked over a long time ago.

Basically, I see this whole thing as more of the same failed system; sciencyness and states rights aren't going to fix it any time soon.

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[info]yzerick
2009-06-20 07:19 am UTC (link)
As an aside, measuring how many people of each ethnicity are in jail is no indicator of justice. Measuring innocents vs guilty is. If more guilty people are convicted in one location then another, that only means that that area is better at dealing out justice under American law. If more guilty people go free, justice is less served. The converse works for innocence. I would be astounded if a perfect justice system would come even close to racial parity. Now a perfect citizenry... that would do it. :-)

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[info]the_plunk
2009-06-20 06:05 pm UTC (link)
I won't deny that our system functions imperfectly and is in fact hilariously broken. What you say is true and I don't disagree with any of it. Actually, this long youtube video does a good job of explaining many ways in which an innocent person can be convicted simply by being questioned by the police and answering all of the questions honestly (which ignores many of the larger reasons for why an innocent person might come to be arrested or questioned by the police in the first place):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

More interesting is the rebuttal by a cop, who explains that he won't arrest or question anyone who he doesn't believe is guilty. So, since he only interrogates the guilty, he's justified in doing whatever it takes to establish that person's guilt. Also he gets bonus points for making a joke that expresses his belief that wealthy criminals are beyond the reach of the law:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE

The problems you describe are exactly why people get falsely convicted, but if you want to stick up for the rights of the falsely convicted then this is a big in deal in certain specific ways. My discussion's narrow because it's addressing a specific event that has caused a specific kind of injustice. It's one part of a larger problem but if you hope to make a substantive change in the way things are done then it has to start somewhere. For me it starts with sharing news that I think is important and that may not be shared elsewhere.

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